Mazda3 or an Acura EL?

[AC15]

The Mazda 3 is not 100% made in Japan, but it is assembled there. There are alot of Mazda 3 parts that are shared with Ford. Japanese quality has also not been as high as before.

I disagree that Canadian quality is inferior than that of Japan. All import automotive production facilities adhere to a rigid standard. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the Honda Alliston and the Cambridge Toyota plants were both nominated as the highest quality plants in the world before (by JD Power I believe). In addition, you're comparing two different companies from two different places. Mazda has been known for so-so reliability and quality over the years, while Honda has been among the top 3 for a long time. So because Mazda build their 3s in Japan doesn't mean it will be higher quality than Honda building their ELs in Canada because there is a significant gap between the two companies' commitment to quality and reliability.

[navdhanju]

Originally posted by AC15
The Mazda 3 is not 100% made in Japan, but it is assembled there. There are alot of Mazda 3 parts that are shared with Ford. Japanese quality has also not been as high as before.

I disagree that Canadian quality is inferior than that of Japan. All import automotive production facilities adhere to a rigid standard. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the Honda Alliston and the Cambridge Toyota plants were both nominated as the highest quality plants in the world before (by JD Power I believe). In addition, you're comparing two different companies from two different places. Mazda has been known for so-so reliability and quality over the years, while Honda has been among the top 3 for a long time. So because Mazda build their 3s in Japan doesn't mean it will be higher quality than Honda building their ELs in Canada because there is a significant gap between the two companies' commitment to quality and reliability.

Very well put AC

[99TL]

A survey is only as good as its data, not to mention data can also be massaged. If North American made cars are of as high quality as Japanese made, then why doesn't Lexus produce all its cars (except the RX330) in North America? The ES330 is basically a Camry, yet the Camry is produced in the US. I'm sure Lexus can easily produce the ES330 in the US if they wanted to.

I believe the reason for this is that:

1) Lexus doesn't want to risk ruining the quality of their cars by building them in North America, and
2) Shipping the cars from Japan is more expensive, but that's ok, because Lexus buyers don't mind paying the extra money to get a Japanese made car, and
3) Lexus buyers/owners probably don't want to tell people that their cars are locally made (which implies an American car).

Also, look at how many high end non-American brand cars are made in North America? Audi, no, BMW, no (except the Z3/4, which are not really high end models), Mercedes-Benz, no (except the M Class, which is not a top model), Lexus, no (except the RX330), Infiniti, no, Volvo, no.

AC15 mentioned that Mazda 3 shares parts with Ford, and therefore, it's not really a 100% made in Japan car. Yes, of course, the Mazda 3, the new Ford Focus, and the new Volvo S40 all share the same chassis. But remember, with the globalized economy, a car won't have all its parts made in one location.

However, a Japanese made car will probably have most of its parts sourced locally, i.e. those will be Japanese parts. Whereas a North American built car will have mostly North American sourced parts. Take an Acura TL for example, it's built in Ohio, and there are lots of American made parts used in the TL, and of course there are parts made elsewhere in the world (like Japan) used in the TL too.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but based on my experience, Japanese made parts have tighter tolerances than American made parts. Although the parts may meet the specifications specified by the car manufacturer, it doesn't mean they're good and reliable - it just means that they meet the minimum requirements. Meeting the minimum requirements is not what we strive for in life, correct? We want to do better than the minimum requirements, and this is where Japanese parts really shine - they usually more than exceed the minimum requirements set by the car manufacturer.

And this is why most Japanese made cars are more reliable than North American made cars, because Japanese cars use parts that not only meet the minimum requirements, but also exceed them.

Also, how did Honda get its high quality and reliability reputation? It's from generation after generation of high quality Japanese made Civics and Accords. Honda didn't build its good reputation from North American made Civics and Accords. Yes, Honda is still in the top 3 in the recent JDP survey, however, the ranking is all relative. Honda just needs to be slightly better than the next highest manufacturer, but it doesn't mean that the current Honda cars have the same high quality as the Honda cars from 15 years ago.

One more thing, in general, Acura is not usually seen as in the same luxury car segment as Audi, Lexus, BMW, MB. I believe this may have something to do with the fact that the high volume Acuras (EL and TL) are less expensive than the competition. As a luxury brand, selling inexpensive models is not really the way to go. Therefore, there is really no need to build the ELs and TLs in North America to reduce cost.

Have you ever heard of the $0.99 face cream which didn't sell well at all, because no self-respecting woman will put a $0.99 face cream on her face? The cream manufacturer then found out what happened and it adjusted the price to $4.99 and the exact cream sold like hotcakes. Low prices, while good for the clear-minded consumer, may not be good for a luxury brand - most consumers who buy luxury brand expect to pay a premium. If a premium is not charged, then to the average consumer, the brand may not be luxurious as it seems to be.

[AC15]

A survey is only as good as its data, not to mention data can also be massaged. If North American made cars are of as high quality as Japanese made, then why doesn't Lexus produce all its cars (except the RX330) in North America? The ES330 is basically a Camry, yet the Camry is produced in the US. I'm sure Lexus can easily produce the ES330 in the US if they wanted to.

So what you're trying to say here is that the US is good enough to produce cars with high quality if they can easily manufacture the ES300 in the US?

Sorry to burst your bubble man, but the ES300 chassis, even tho assembled in Japan, is the exact same one that the US-built Camry uses. Even the Camry engine, being manufactured in the US and all, is tweaked and repackaged as the ES300 engine. So all of a sudden, your precious ES300 is not as Japanese as it seems. And being a owner of two lexus(es), a 1999 ES300 and 1998 GS400; and a former owner of a 1995 Toyota Camry, I have a good idea of how their quality and reliability goes.... exactly the same lol.

The Toyota Highlander, being assembled in Japan, shares the exact same chassis and engine as the Canadian built RX330. Would you say the RX330 is lesser quality than the Highlander?

Lexus doesn't want to risk ruining the quality of their cars by building them in North America, and
Shipping the cars from Japan is more expensive, but that's ok, because Lexus buyers don't mind paying the extra money to get a Japanese made car, and

Unfortunately, they have in the RX330. And it remains one of their best selling cars.

3) Lexus buyers/owners probably don't want to tell people that their cars are locally made (which implies an American car).

That's a totally baseless assumption. I don't see many people going to a Lexus buyer and say, ha, your car is a piece of shit because its made in canada and not in japan... even tho it is a $50000 Lexus. Or a person going up to a Jaguar S-Type driver and say the exact same thing considering it cost about 60-90 grand. Since you brought up the globalization topic, you're right, no single car is manufactured with products purely made from one manufacturer. This is not 20-30 years ago, and with the introduction of OEM companies and outsourcing its becoming increasingly hard not to find foreign parts in most vehicles today. Even the best Mercedes, nowadays, share parts with Chrysler. Would you go up to a SLK 500 driver and say your car sucks because it has Chrysler parts in it?

Also, look at how many high end non-American brand cars are made in North America? Audi, no, BMW, no (except the Z3/4, which are not really high end models), Mercedes-Benz, no (except the M Class, which is not a top model), Lexus, no (except the RX330), Infiniti, no, Volvo, no.

Lexus - RX330 - Canada
Jaguar - S-Type R - US (alongside Lincoin)
Mercedes M Class - US (Mercedes introducing another in late 2004)
BMW Z Class - US
Audi A4, A6, and older generation Audis - Made in China

just a few that pops up in my mind. Mercedes, Volvo and Jaguar (especially with its partnership with Ford) has all unveiled plans to increase production of cars made domestically as well.

AC15 mentioned that Mazda 3 shares parts with Ford, and therefore, it's not really a 100% made in Japan car. Yes, of course, the Mazda 3, the new Ford Focus, and the new Volvo S40 all share the same chassis. But remember, with the globalized economy, a car won't have all its parts made in one location.

If you have a ford chassis, ford engine, but assembled in japan, do you still consider it Japanese high quality? That's like 50% of the car right there buddy... LOL.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but based on my experience, Japanese made parts have tighter tolerances than American made parts. Although the parts may meet the specifications specified by the car manufacturer, it doesn't mean they're good and reliable - it just means that they meet the minimum requirements. Meeting the minimum requirements is not what we strive for in life, correct? We want to do better than the minimum requirements, and this is where Japanese parts really shine - they usually more than exceed the minimum requirements set by the car manufacturer.

15-20 years ago, that is true. However, various Japanese manufacturing methods, like JIT , 5S have been largely adopted by car manufacturing facilities across the globe, vastly closing the gap in production quality. Two of the world's most reliable and highest quality ranked cars, the Civic and Corolla, largely roll off from Canadian and US assembly plants. Many domestic car production facilities have gone a long way. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the Canadian Toyota plant is responsible for developing a new manufacturing process that is now being adopted by Toyota plants across the world, including Japan.

Also, how did Honda get its high quality and reliability reputation? It's from generation after generation of high quality Japanese made Civics and Accords. Honda didn't build its good reputation from North American made Civics and Accords. Yes, Honda is still in the top 3 in the recent JDP survey, however, the ranking is all relative. Honda just needs to be slightly better than the next highest manufacturer, but it doesn't mean that the current Honda cars have the same high quality as the Honda cars from 15 years ago.

Honda introduced its first Civics and Accords in 1973 and 1976 respectively. At that time, Japanese cars were NOT known for quality, and were shunned to american brands like Ford and european brands. It is not until the mid 1980s that Honda started to make a name for itself with a reliable car, when Honda outsourced its Civics and Accords to production in North America. It is because of high quality of Civics and Accords produced in US and Canada plants that allowed Honda to make a name for itself in the quality and reliability department. The Civic and Accord, now in its prime, are built up not because the Japanese plants shipped its cars to the American public, they stopped shipping a long time ago; but because locally manufactured Hondas made their way into North American people's hearts and resulting in Honda's golden age in the mid80s-90s.

One more thing, in general, Acura is not usually seen as in the same luxury car segment as Audi, Lexus, BMW, MB. I believe this may have something to do with the fact that the high volume Acuras (EL and TL) are less expensive than the competition. As a luxury brand, selling inexpensive models is not really the way to go. Therefore, there is really no need to build the ELs and TLs in North America to reduce cost.

Acura never marketed itself as a competitor to BMWs or Mercedes. Many Acuras are priced lower than their competitors because of Honda's attempt to gain market share in the premium car market. It doesn't mean because they are priced lower they aren't luxury. Honda needs to hold and gain in this division in order to avoid falling far behind Toyota Lexus and Nissan Infiniti. And I just don't see how they are a little less inexpensive is related with the quality of the car.... considering Acura is ranked among the top in this department.

Have you ever heard of the $0.99 face cream which didn't sell well at all, because no self-respecting woman will put a $0.99 face cream on her face? The cream manufacturer then found out what happened and it adjusted the price to $4.99 and the exact cream sold like hotcakes. Low prices, while good for the clear-minded consumer, may not be good for a luxury brand - most consumers who buy luxury brand expect to pay a premium. If a premium is not charged, then to the average consumer, the brand may not be luxurious as it seems to be.

There are people in this world who will dish out the extra cash in order to feel more well being. But the other 90% rest of us just won't cut it. People don't look at the prices when buying cars if money is not a factor to them, but they look at the brand. If Kia suddenly jacked up their prices beyond the price of a BMW or Lexus, do you think people will go for the Kia instead because of price?

That's just totally false. Being more expensive has nothing to do with people thinking the car is better. It is more with the brand and the reputation associated with the brand.

Which brings to my point, just because a car is ASSEMBLED in Japan, it does not mean its higher quality, but rather the actual quality control and commitment of a brand determines its quality.


The "Made In Japan" thing has been blown out of proportions today. Many car companies do this as a marketing hype, thinking that since a car is "Made in Japan" it can sell for more and make more off it. Heck, I read in some article before that Mazda used this Made In Japan move with its 3s just to put some reputation back into its reliability/quality ratings.

I agree that Japanese made stuff have a history of quality, making it more reputable in the word of mouth today. But because the parts used in cars today are shared and manufactured from so many different places, its very hard to say that a car assembled in Japan is just that much better than a car manufactured in Canada or the States anymore. The gap is just very insignificant.

Besides that, you also need to factor in Mazda's so-so quality control vs Honda's top-notch quality control, Mazda's shared parts with Ford vs Honda's own developed parts (even tho they outsource nowadays).

Saying that any car made in Japan is better is a blind statement without understanding any associated factors that might be involved.

[99TL]

I believe to discuss this further, we should break down this discussion into parts and car assembly, and quality and reliability. I believe the general definition of quality is the fit-and-finish of the product. Therefore, a high quality product shouldn't have rattles, because every part is up to spec and they fit each other perfectly without rubbing, or rattling against each other.

However, even if the parts are of very high quality, they can cause rattles/problems if they are not assembled well - i.e. the quality of car assembly. This is what I was really referring to - North American part manufacturers (and most parts manufacturers) nowadays can probably produce decent parts that meet or exceed the specifications set by the car manufacturer, however, can these parts be assembled properly with the tightest tolerances (like consistent fender/door gaps, interior parts that don't rub against each other so that there will be no rattles) to produce a high quality final product (i.e. the car itself)?

The definition of reliability can be a bit vague - but generally speaking, reliability is a measure of how frequently the car or its parts break down or not functioning to specs. Generally, high quality parts are reliable, because they are up to specs (or exceed the specs) and can function with the other parts properly. However, as mentioned above, a quality part can make a car unreliable if the part is not installed properly or installed with tight tolerances.

Basically, the overall quality and reliability of a car = quality of its parts+quality of the assembly.

Honestly, if you put a ES330 side-by-side with a Camry and you can't see the difference in assembly quality, then I suppose to you, North American made cars are just as good as Japanese made cars. Just go take a look at the gap between the front interior door panels and the dashboard in a Camry and compare it to a ES330. Also, look at the gaps between the front fenders and the front doors, the gaps between the trunk and car's body, the gaps between the body and the bumpers. Yes, uneven gaps may not make a car less reliable, however, if the North American factories can't even get a small thing like a door/fender gap correct, what do you think they'll do for more complex things that you can't see, like inside your engine?

Since you have an EL and a GS400 and a ES300, why don't you look at every small detail (like interior/exterior panel gaps) of each car and see if you can find any inconsistencies? May I ask why you bought the ES instead of the TL? Both are very luxurious "Japanese" FWD cars with similar sized engines. The ES is more expensive than the TL, but yet you bought the ES instead - so you're willing to pay extra for the ES - obviously the ES has something that the TL doesn't - could it be the fit-and-finish??

I had a brand new 88 Accord EX-i (back in 88) and also a brand new 99 TL (back in 99). I would expect after exactly 11 years, the quality and fit and finish should be much better on the 99TL (especially since it's an Acura). But I was totally surprised to find out that my 88 Accord EX-i (100% made in Japan) had much better fit and finish and overall quality than the 99TL. The 99TL had lots of rattles and other small, but annoying issues, whereas the 88 Accord EX-i was just perfect - no rattles, no problems - I've had it until it reached 300k km - no problems, just regular wear and tear items.

On about twenty 99 TLs that I have seen, the gap between the driver's side door panel and the dashboard is much smaller than the gap between the front passenger's side door panel and the dashboard. The gap is very noticeable - you can tell just by looking at it. Now, that's what I called low quality assembly.

Also, my friends' 98 and 99 Accords (shares many parts with the 99TL) had quite a bit of problems too - rattles, wheel bearings gone, transmission problems, just to name a few, and these problems are mostly caused by low quality parts and low quality assembly.

Yes, I know this is a small sample and could be just a conincidence, but these are just examples to illustrate my point of high quality vs. low quality.

Anyway, a few points to be cleared up from your message:

1) I believe JIT is for cost and inventory control, not quality control.

2) Mazda's lower quality and reliability reputation (than Honda) is mainly due to the RX-7 in the 80s. The RX-7 had a rotary engine, which, as any car enthusiast knows, is a very difficult engine to tune and be made reliable. The mistake that Mazda made was it marketed and priced the RX-7 as a regular "sports" car - which most people can afford, and as such, people's expectation is that it's basically a regular car in a sports car body (i.e. it's not an exotic sports car like a Ferrari). And because of this expectation, people expect it to run flawlessly and reliably day after day.

However, the rotary engine does require special care, it's not your every day non-rotary engine. And when people ran into problems with the rotary engine, Mazda's reputation got dragged down at the same time as well. Also, the Mazda Millenia with the miller cycle engine doesn't help either. Both the rotary and miller cycle engines are really technologically advanced, but I don't think they are really that suitable for most consumers in the market segment that Mazda competes in. Hence, Mazda is viewed as a lower quality/less reliable brand, which I don't believe is true - most late model Mazdas are quite reliable - the Miata, MPV, Protege 5, Mazda 6 are all quite reliable and quality is quite good - the Mazda 3 should be similar.

3) Honda never outsourced the production of Accords in North America in the 80s - Honda built is own plant(s) in North America to produce base model Accords (higher models of Accords were still made in Japan). Accord was the first model to be produced in North America (in 1982). It's not until 1996 that Honda started to produce other models like the Acura CL and the 6G Civic in North America. As you can see, the high quality and reliability reputation of Honda was actually built mostly by Honda cars made in Japan, not North America. Also, have you noticed that there are more recalls of Honda/Acura cars lately compared to say 10 years ago? It's very likely that it's because more and more Honda/Acura cars are made in North America with lower quality parts and lower quality assembly.

4) I don't believe MB has a model called SLK500, did you mean the CLK500? Also, MB's quality and reliability has been steadily decreasing too, according to your favourite JD Power surveys. So, either Chrysler parts are used in MBs now, or DC must be spending most of its time and money on developing and producing higher quality Chrysler cars, and less on MB cars.

5) Also, the Audi A4, A6 and older Audis are not all made in China. Please get your facts straight. The only Chinese made Audis are the Audis sold in China. Even Audis sold in Hong Kong (being so close to China) are made in Germany.

6) You mentioned "It doesn't mean because they are priced lower they aren't luxury." - this statement is not exactly true - if Acuras are priced lower than their competition and has the same luxury level as their competitors, then Honda must have some secret way of keeping their costs really low. But I don't think they do, so Honda has to cut corners somewhere. Here's an example, on my 99TL, the sides of the front and rear seats are vinyl, only the seating surface of the seat is leather. This is unacceptable for a luxury car, or even a near-luxury car. The Lexus ES has full leather seats (except the front seat back I believe - I guess you can check this out in your ES). Partial leather seats are acceptable in cars like the Accord or Camry, but in a supposedly luxurious Acura model? I don't think so. How about the plood (plastic wood)? What the heck is it doing in a near-luxury car? I would rather have a plain looking dash than plood on my dash.

[navdhanju]

Actually even Most mercedes have only partial leather. When they don;t have what u call full leather all around they usually call it Leatherette.

The Acura name is considered to be affordable luxury. IT IS LUXURY. Look at the new RL coming out this fall. The price on that thing is supposed to be running in the $65,000-$75,000 range. And you say price = luxury. Well i guess than that maybe means ACURA IS CONSIDERED LUXURY.

[99TL]

I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Leatherette in MB term is called MB Tex or Leather Twin. Leatherette is a term used by BMW.

Anyway, MB Tex/Leather Twin or Leatherette is not leather. An MB with MB Tex/Leather Twin interior or a BMW with Leatherette interior has no leather at all - all seating surfaces/door panels are covered with this MB Tex/Leather Twin or Leatherette. But they look and feel so good that they're often mistaken for real leather.

You're right to a certain extent - the lower end MB C Class do have leather inserts - i.e. the seating surfaces and door panels are leather, but the sides of the seats are MB Tex/Leather Twin. However, as I mentioned above, MB Tex/Leather Twin are so good that it's very difficult to tell where the real leather insert ends and the MB Tex/Leather Twin begins on a seat. On the mid to higher end MBs, the interiors are all full leather.

However, if you look at the vinyl on the sides of the seats on my previous 99TL, you'll find that the vinyl is so cheap that it shouldn't even be compared to MB Tex or Leatherette. It's so easy to tell which part is vinyl and which part is leather - the vinyl doesn't look and feel like leather at all, and it makes the interior of the car looks "cheap.

Yes, in the public's mind, price = luxury in the luxury market. A high price tag is almost a requirement in this market, just like leather seats, sunroof, power seats, etc. Just look at Lexus - can you name a Lexus that has a list price less than CAD$40K? Acura has cars that are way below CAD$40K - like the EL, RSX and TSX.

Affordable luxury is actually an oxymoron. By its very definition, luxury implies excess (and possibly waste as well) - it's something that's not needed, but nice to have. Not too many people can afford to have excess (and waste). So, how can a luxury car be affordable? I think near luxury, or pseudo luxury would be more appropriate.

And yes, I think Acura is going in the right direction by introducing a brand new and expensive 05 RL with lots of goodies like SH-AWD. However, that's not really enough - since the RL is only one model in Acura's lineup and RL doesn not equal to Acura, so we can't say Acura is luxury with just the RL. All of its models will need to be upgraded and sell for a higher price in order to project an image of luxury. Do you think a luxury car buyer who's paying $60 to $70K for a 05RL will want to be associated with a brand that has cars priced in the $20K to $30K range? I don't think so. The EL, RSX, TSX should be badged as Honda Civic (top model), Honda Integra, Honda Accord respectively. The current Honda Accord should be badged as the Honda Inspire (just like in Japan). Or if the Accord should remain an "accord" (because of its size), then the TSX can probably be badged as a Honda Inspire. The S2000 should be rebadged as an Acura.

Another thing that Acura should do is to differentiate its cars more from their Honda counter parts, especially for its high volume cars. The TL is too similar to the Accord, the EL is too similar to the Civic. I guess if they jack up the prices of the Acura models, they can probably afford to create Acura models with more unique parts or even on completely different platforms than Honda cars.

[navdhanju]

Originally posted by 99TL

Another thing that Acura should do is to differentiate its cars more from their Honda counter parts, especially for its high volume cars. The TL is too similar to the Accord, the EL is too similar to the Civic. I guess if they jack up the prices of the Acura models, they can probably afford to create Acura models with more unique parts or even on completely different platforms than Honda cars.

Just like how the ES330 is very similar to the Camry, or the Nissan Maxima is with the G35 Sedean, or 350Z = G35c, or how about this, Volkswagon Toureg = Porsche Cayenne. How about the Ford Crown Vic = Mercury Grand Marquis (Maruader), Lincoln LS = Jag x-type. I mean almost every company has a luxury brand of its own that shares the same platform with one another. Here is a prime example. One of the shittiest cars ever IMO, the Chevy Cavalier, Did you know that the Cadillac Catera was built on a Cavalier Chassis. The two cars are the same except for when it comes to the name. Both cars sucked balls.

The TL is fairly unique on its own. The Accord does nto have the HFL, or the power, or little goodies like the TL does. The EL has a V-tech engine whereas Civic's dont, except for the new SI. The TSX is a car that supposed to compete with the likes of a BMW 3 series. And mind u it has done a fine job indeed. If people don;t like Acura or think it is not comparable to BMW, MB, Lexus, Inifinti, then how come a lot of buyers are trading in their so called LUXURY brands for the new TL. WHY......? More car for less money. The TL is very luxurious, as is the EL compared to the Civic. Honda is very smart by offering the public a chance to get into a "near luxury" segment without having to bust their wallets open.

[99TL]

Nissan Maxima = Infiniti I35, not G35. Both the Maxima and I35 are based on the FWD FM platform.

Also, Jaguar X-type is not the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type shares the same chassis as the Lincoln LS.

Sharing a chassis doesn't mean the car is the same - completely different cars can be built on the same platform - e.g. the new Ford focus, the new Volvo S40 and the Mazda 3 - these are all very different cars sharing the same chassis.

However, the Acura TL and the V6 Accord share more than just the chassis - the power window switches, power mirror switch, overhead console, sunroof, headrests, brakes, engine, a/c, and suspension components are all shared.

The ES doesn't as much with the Camry. Also, if you look at MB and BMWs, their cars don't share their platforms with any other cars. Even higher end Lexus models like the IS, GS, LS, or the Infiniti M35/45 and Q45, or even the Acura RL don't share much with any other cars.

Therefore, a true luxury car is built on its own platform, and thus, it'll cost more to produce, and therefore, more expensive and exclusive.

Also, where did you get the idea that "a lot of buyers are trading in their so called LUXURY brands for the new TL" - I don't think any one will be willing to trade in their LS430, GS400, MB E or S class, BMW 5 or 7 series for a new TL. As I mentioned before, the TL is a near luxury car, it's not a true luxury car.

[AC15]

Okay man, not every one of us has the time to write and read another essay. You're entitled to your opinions, and I just don't have the time to debate with you.

1) You're right, JIT is an economical and efficiency approach, originating in Japan. But my point is being that VARIOUS Japanese methods are being adopted by car production facilities all around the world.

2) Mazda's reliability has taken a hit not because of rotary engines. It has taken a hit because Mazda is concerned with a cost cutting scheme during the 90s, resulting in indistinguishable cars that do not appeal in public and loosened quality control.

3) That's a totally baseless assumption again. Honda has been involved in cost cutting ever since their sales have been declining. More and more of their parts are outsourced to countries like Mexico. In fact, due to declined sales in the North American market, I don't really see there would be more cars produced in NA and how this declined production would lead to more cars rolling off NA assembly lines.....hmmmm. And btw, get your facts straight, Civics are produced in Canada since mid-late 80s. My relative's 1989 Civic is one of those examples, and with more than 450k and 15 years in the running it's still running smooth with minimal problems, with the exception of a busted up muffler which is expected.

4) That's my typo.... considering the K key is next to the L.

5) That's not my point. Your point is that the 'luxurious high quality brands' like Audi don't manufacturer anywhere due to danger of ruining their reputation. Unfortunately, the fact is they do manufacture, and under their own brand name, cars in China.

6) Okay man. Listen, if you want to go buy your 4.99 face cream when you can buy it for .99 cents for similar quality cream, thats fine with me and everyone else. And unfortunately, the leather on my ES300 and GS400 are the same layout as on the TL, with vinyls on the sides. And I don't see how Honda's commitment to preserve the environment by NOT using real wood trims is making it cheap.

I mean, its like if you want to get a $120,000 NSX when you can get a Supra for $50,000 that's fine with me. But when the Supra outperforms the NSX in every way? Heck, even the $40,000 RX-8 can outperform the NSX. A higher price does not make any car better or more luxurious, and in this case, a higher performance car. Or in the luxurious sense, why does comparable MB and BMWs cost just that much more than a LS430 when the LS430 is more luxurious and higher quality built?

And regarding my ES300 and GS400 compared to my Camry, surprisingly, I never had one single problem with the Camry even if I abuse it by putting it ouside in winter and such while the ES300's transmission crapped out on me and the GS400's brake as well when both are babied. Materials wise, well..... considering that the Es and the GS cost a significant chunk more than the Camry, then of course the materials used are of higher quality. But the gap spacing, one of the focus of study in quality, is the same in the ES as my Camry (GS a little better). Hell, my Canadian made EL has better gap spacing than both my Lexuses.

[RiceBoy]

This has a been a healthy and relatively insult-free debate so far, from all sides. Let's keep it that way, because I don't want to have to close this thread. Just being pre-emptive here so it doesn't get out of control.

(I may not be on here as much because of my health issues, but I'll still be poking my head in here every once in a while)

[navdhanju]

Originally posted by RiceBoy
This has a been a healthy and relatively insult-free debate so far, from all sides. Let's keep it that way, because I don't want to have to close this thread. Just being pre-emptive here so it doesn't get out of control.

(I may not be on here as much because of my health issues, but I'll still be poking my head in here every once in a while)

James the enforcer.... wondering where you were at. Hope you feeling better. Whats the situation looking like so far.

Sorry if I'm going off topic a little here.

[navdhanju]

Originally posted by 99TL
Nissan Maxima = Infiniti I35, not G35. Both the Maxima and I35 are based on the FWD FM platform.

Also, Jaguar X-type is not the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type shares the same chassis as the Lincoln LS.

Sharing a chassis doesn't mean the car is the same - completely different cars can be built on the same platform - e.g. the new Ford focus, the new Volvo S40 and the Mazda 3 - these are all very different cars sharing the same chassis.

However, the Acura TL and the V6 Accord share more than just the chassis - the power window switches, power mirror switch, overhead console, sunroof, headrests, brakes, engine, a/c, and suspension components are all shared.

The ES doesn't as much with the Camry. Also, if you look at MB and BMWs, their cars don't share their platforms with any other cars. Even higher end Lexus models like the IS, GS, LS, or the Infiniti M35/45 and Q45, or even the Acura RL don't share much with any other cars.

Therefore, a true luxury car is built on its own platform, and thus, it'll cost more to produce, and therefore, more expensive and exclusive.

Also, where did you get the idea that "a lot of buyers are trading in their so called LUXURY brands for the new TL" - I don't think any one will be willing to trade in their LS430, GS400, MB E or S class, BMW 5 or 7 series for a new TL. As I mentioned before, the TL is a near luxury car, it's not a true luxury car.

I used to sell for Westside Acura. So the source would be me, and YES I did see many poeple trade in their luxury cars for an Acura.

Anyways....

[AC15]

I think the newest JD Powers report on dependability, a big indicator on a car's quality, speaks volume about this Mazda3 Made in Japan vs Acura EL made in Canada issue.

http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/adv...e&pos=editlead

There are over 5 import cars ranked tops that are mass manufactured in North America.

And if we look at corporation standings, Mazda did not reach the top 10 and is well below the industry average. Even if we count Mazda as part of the Ford corporation, it is still below industry average and a significant distance from Honda, which is 2nd.

[99TL]

OK. You Acura EL lovers win. There's no point in arguing anymore - you all just love the EL, right? Well, what else can I expect from an Acura EL forum?