No start and door pull inactive same time - Acura Forum : Acura Forums
2nd Gen Legend Model year 1991-1995 Acura Legend, Coupe and Sedan.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-04-11, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
No start and door auto-latch inactive @ same time

'95 Legend L.

Last week, drove 20 minutes in stop & go traffic, stopped at gas station for 5 or so minutes. Came back to car - cranks just fine, but no start.

Noticed at the same time that the auto-latch on both doors is inop.

No fuel pressure at main rail under hood. Had car towed home. After unloading it from flatbed, car starts and runs just like new, and the doors auto-latch again...

Reading some other threads, got access to the relay box up under the dash just above the hood release. Unbolted it to allow on-the-fly swapping, if the problem resurfaced. Have a spare from a known working car, carried that around for a few days.

Also removed the back seat to have better access to the fuel pump for diagnostic purposes.

Today, car pulled same stunt again. Crank like crazy, no start. Doors don't auto-close either. Swapped relay - no change.

Then I noticed a buzzing sound coming from the backseat area. Traced it to a small box mounted to the cross brace. Box is white in color and about 3" x 4" x 1-1/2" thick. Unplugged connectors - buzzing noise stops. Plug connectors back in - buzzing noise returned. Unplugged again and replugged connector and buzzing stopped. Door auto-latch function back online, and car starts again.

Get back home and pulled the box out and opened the case expecting to find something burned or smoky-smelling - nothing. Door auto-latch definitely offline when box is disconnected, but car still starts and runs without the box installed.

SO - something is affecting the door self-latch system and the fuel pump control as well. I'm thinking the buzzing was because of a low-voltage issue to one or more of the relays, but no way to know for sure.

Battery is new-ish - alternator generates solid 14+ volts at idle, just under 14 with most/all accessories in operation.

Any suggestions as to where to look next?

Last edited by wbrian63; 06-05-11 at 10:31 AM.
wbrian63 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 06-06-11, 12:02 PM
Registered User
 
Hondacuraplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY USA
Age: 48
Posts: 4,815
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Hondacuraplanet
By self-latch I assume you mean some sort of automatic locking system?

Tim Poliniak - ASE Certified Parts Specialist, 22 years with Acura/Honda
Hondacuraplanet is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 06-06-11, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
No - the doors pull themselves shut. Not locking, latching. When the door latches, the seat belt "arms" at the bottom of the seat back also pivot forward.
wbrian63 is offline  
 
post #4 of 13 Old 06-08-11, 09:58 PM
Prez of Acura-Holiks club
 
L3GDKANG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 10-A-Key
Posts: 178
My Mood: Relaxed
sounds like you have a main relay going out the next time it dont start try smacking the under dash by the hood release that should make it start. the suckers may be going out if some slames the doors that makes them go bad!

Just a few of my JDM pieces! I'm moding my sedan after the Alpha and the Alpha Touring Honda Legends but with a custom twist to it!
L3GDKANG is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 06-09-11, 09:01 AM
Registered User
 
Hondacuraplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY USA
Age: 48
Posts: 4,815
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Hondacuraplanet
I'm assuming that's the relay that he swapped.....

I've been working for Acura since your car was new, and oddly enough, I never knew that the auto door close circuit even existed. I took time and did research on this, and this is a lot more complex than I'd expect. Since this is the symptom and not the problem, my only guess is that there is a wire grounded out somewhere, or a faulty ETS unit (the name for that box). This one has me at a loss for an easy "check this" solution.....

Tim Poliniak - ASE Certified Parts Specialist, 22 years with Acura/Honda
Hondacuraplanet is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 09-13-11, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
Car is a couch

Revisiting this thread as we've been unsuccessful in solving the problem.

The problem with the door closers is a symptom, not a cause.

Up to this point, the car has remained consistent - if the car would start, it would not give any trouble (would remain running). However, recently, it has started failing with the car running.

We have two ETS modules, both believed to be good. Each time the problem occurs, we swap the ETS - never makes any difference.

The problem can happen with the engine hot or cold.

We've attached a led lamp to the fuel pump supply circuit, just to make sure that we're not dealing with a flaky pump. When the pump has power, the led lights up. Every time the problem occurs, the light is out (no voltage to the pump).

We have a subscription to AllData-DIY, but unfortunately, the wiring diagrams there are on a system-by-system basis, with no apparent way to figure out what feeds what.

For instance, when this problem occurs, the door closer motors and the associated control module (mounted to the diagonal brace on the driver's side behind the rear seat) go offline. With either door open, the module can be heard clicking and buzzing. I can find the wiring diagram for the door closer motors, which show the control module, but I can't find from that diagram what systems feed into that module.

I believe the buzzing is caused because something has interrupted (or partially) a ground signal. The sound is typical of a relay that is getting 12v+, but not a good ground reference for the coil.

The car has an auto-start system on it. We removed it entirely - no effect. No surprise there, as there are no cut circuits in that system, everything "T's" into the wiring harness.

We've checked all of the wires running through the driver's door sill chase - no issues there.

We've checked all of the wires running through the passenger's door sill chase - no issues there.

We pulled the battery and checked the chassis ground wire. It's stiff from age, but is otherwise intact. Resistance between negative terminal and attachment point for the ground wire is nearly zero.

Are we looking at a flaky ECU?

This is a great car - but it makes a lousy couch.

Help, please...
wbrian63 is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 09-13-11, 01:39 PM
Registered User
 
Hondacuraplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY USA
Age: 48
Posts: 4,815
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Hondacuraplanet
Here's a couple things that come to mind, offhand......

First, check resistance in the wires that had the snap splice connectors in them. The wires can potentially corrode from the inside out, leaving no indication of issue. Rotate them around and bend them at the splices to be sure nothing changes.

Secondly, unbolt the fuse boxes and ECU and check for corrosion on the undersides and back sides. I've mentioned it many times here on Acuraworld, many Acuras back in the 90s had hidden issues with water ingress, causing all kinds of electrical anomalies and ground fault issues.

Tim Poliniak - ASE Certified Parts Specialist, 22 years with Acura/Honda
Hondacuraplanet is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 09-15-11, 01:40 PM
Prez of Acura-Holiks club
 
L3GDKANG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 10-A-Key
Posts: 178
My Mood: Relaxed
when it dont start do it throw any cel?

Just a few of my JDM pieces! I'm moding my sedan after the Alpha and the Alpha Touring Honda Legends but with a custom twist to it!
L3GDKANG is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 09-16-11, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
No CEL. However, it doesn't mean it hasn't stored a transient code and not turned the light on. Will check that.

Thanks for the suggestion.
wbrian63 is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 09-16-11, 06:36 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacuraplanet View Post
Here's a couple things that come to mind, offhand......

First, check resistance in the wires that had the snap splice connectors in them. The wires can potentially corrode from the inside out, leaving no indication of issue. Rotate them around and bend them at the splices to be sure nothing changes.
"Now" you tell me... just kidding - the auto-start system is CRAMMED in (neatly of course, but you know how precious space is under the dash).

Will check that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacuraplanet View Post
Secondly, unbolt the fuse boxes and ECU and check for corrosion on the undersides and back sides. I've mentioned it many times here on Acuraworld, many Acuras back in the 90s had hidden issues with water ingress, causing all kinds of electrical anomalies and ground fault issues.
Will do that as well.

Honestly, I suspect that either one of these will return zero results. My experience with electrical faults involving corrosion is that once they occur, they don't self-heal, unless something is moved to change the connection.

When we put the car back together about a month ago after reliable performance for days and days, the very next morning, as the car was leaving, I notice the owners's gym bag sitting on the floor adjacent to the door. I rushed outside and called to the owner. They had already pulled out of the driveway into the street. Asked if they intended to leave the bag behind. "No I didn't." They were already pulling away, so instead of backing up and driving into the driveway, they just reversed in. I opened the passenger door to put the bag in the car and they said - "No, in the trunk, please." I left the passenger door open and lifted the trunk lid, placed the bag inside and closed the lid. When I closed the passenger door, the car faltered and died and would not restart.

We pushed it to the curb and other transportation was used. The car sat in front of the house for at least a week, and the problem never self-healed, as it had always done previously.

Finally got the car back into the garage and pulled the auto-start out, checked all the wiring harnesses, etc. Found no issues.

Checked this, checked that. Wiggled this, wiggled that. Gave up and came back a few hours later to discover the car had self-healed. Owner was "sure" we'd fixed the problem - I wasn't convinced.

Put everything back together. I suggested we repeat the backing in event again. Backed the car out of the garage and turned it around to back it in. As it was coming back up the driveway, it did it again.

Son of a b.....

Driver got out of the car, and as expected, the door pull was inop.

Went to get the winch assembly to pull the car back in again when we noticed the door pulled shut. Car started up again like there was no issue and was backed into the garage without a problem.

That's where it sits today. A beautiful red Acura Coupe COUCH...

Appreciate all the suggestions. Will try anything at this point.

We have a "spare" Acura, a 93 model, but has a manual transmission, and I believe the ECU's aren't compatible between the two cars, or I'd try swapping the ECU.

Keep the ideas coming - this problem is solvable...

Regards
wbrian63 is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 09-20-11, 08:07 PM
Prez of Acura-Holiks club
 
L3GDKANG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 10-A-Key
Posts: 178
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrian63 View Post
"Now" you tell me... just kidding - the auto-start system is CRAMMED in (neatly of course, but you know how precious space is under the dash).

Will check that.



Will do that as well.

Honestly, I suspect that either one of these will return zero results. My experience with electrical faults involving corrosion is that once they occur, they don't self-heal, unless something is moved to change the connection.

When we put the car back together about a month ago after reliable performance for days and days, the very next morning, as the car was leaving, I notice the owners's gym bag sitting on the floor adjacent to the door. I rushed outside and called to the owner. They had already pulled out of the driveway into the street. Asked if they intended to leave the bag behind. "No I didn't." They were already pulling away, so instead of backing up and driving into the driveway, they just reversed in. I opened the passenger door to put the bag in the car and they said - "No, in the trunk, please." I left the passenger door open and lifted the trunk lid, placed the bag inside and closed the lid. When I closed the passenger door, the car faltered and died and would not restart.

We pushed it to the curb and other transportation was used. The car sat in front of the house for at least a week, and the problem never self-healed, as it had always done previously.

Finally got the car back into the garage and pulled the auto-start out, checked all the wiring harnesses, etc. Found no issues.

Checked this, checked that. Wiggled this, wiggled that. Gave up and came back a few hours later to discover the car had self-healed. Owner was "sure" we'd fixed the problem - I wasn't convinced.

Put everything back together. I suggested we repeat the backing in event again. Backed the car out of the garage and turned it around to back it in. As it was coming back up the driveway, it did it again.

Son of a b.....

Driver got out of the car, and as expected, the door pull was inop.

Went to get the winch assembly to pull the car back in again when we noticed the door pulled shut. Car started up again like there was no issue and was backed into the garage without a problem.

That's where it sits today. A beautiful red Acura Coupe COUCH...

Appreciate all the suggestions. Will try anything at this point.

We have a "spare" Acura, a 93 model, but has a manual transmission, and I believe the ECU's aren't compatible between the two cars, or I'd try swapping the ECU.

Keep the ideas coming - this problem is solvable...

Regards
no they arent but if you like i could swop you a type 2 auto ecu for that manual type 2 ecu?

Just a few of my JDM pieces! I'm moding my sedan after the Alpha and the Alpha Touring Honda Legends but with a custom twist to it!
L3GDKANG is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 12-02-11, 07:43 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 10
Finally Fixed!!!

After much fretting and checking of everything suggested by folks here on this forum and other sources, I finally bowed to the suggestion that maybe indeed the fuel pump was the source of the problems.

I note for posterity that I never believed 100% that the fuel pump was at the core of the issue, but the arguments presented made a small amount of sense.

First, it was verified that when the problem occurred, no voltage was found at the power line to the pump. The argument was made that possibly this was "by design", and that when the ECU called for the fuel pump to run, and after a short time no pressure was detected, the circuit to the pump was disabled. This made sense, as a no-pressure situation could be the result of a broken pressure hose, and while the pump would be running, no pressure would be generated, as all the fuel was being dumped on the ground.

I countered that the normal design of electric fuel pumps is a brief "on cycle" when the key is turned from "off" to "on", but prior to crank. This pressurizes the system enough to get the motor to start. Some cars also provide power to the pump as long as the engine is cranking. Once the engine is running, power is supplied continuously so long as the engine remains running.

Anyway - a new pump was ordered. FIRST LESSON LEARNED - Autoparts Warehose "guaranteed to fit" fuel pumps DO NOT FIT. I'm still dancing around with those folks on getting the part returned and a full refund.... The pump we got was the same length, but way too big in diameter, plus the outlet was in the center of the pump instead of at the edge - no way to install it.

Sourced a compatible replacement and installed it.

Started the car and ran back to the trunk to check for leaks. As the car was cranked and with the jostling of getting in and out of the car, the cover to the fuel pump recess fell back down over the top of the pump, so it had to be lifted up to see if there were leaks.

As soon as the lid was lifted, the car sputtered and died.

OK - NOW we're getting somewhere. What did moving the lid do to the power coming to the pump?

A little quick investigation revealed the harness that feeds the pump has a ground wire that exits the loom about 1 foot to the right of the pump cover. Where that wire attaches to the frame, the bolt was only in place by 1 or 2 threads...

Tightened the bolt back up, car started and ran just fine.

Just to make double-sure that was the problem - with the car running, loosen and remove the bolt. As soon as the ground wire broke contact with the body of the car, the engine died. With the wire loose, we once again heard the buzzing in the door control module, and the auto-close controls for the door were again off-line.

So - why was the bolt loose?

At one point in the past, the car had a trunk-mounted sub-woofer. Apparently when we removed it, we loosened the bolt and failed to re-attach it. It had been slowly vibrating loose over the last 2 years of occasional driving...

So - I was right all along - the buzzing was indeed a 12v relay that was receiving 12v+ but lacked a good ground signal. We just never looked at what was right in front of us in the trunk....

It's good to have the car back on the road....

Thanks for all the suggestions offered.
wbrian63 is offline  
post #13 of 13 Old 12-06-11, 10:53 AM
Registered User
 
Hondacuraplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY USA
Age: 48
Posts: 4,815
Garage
Send a message via AIM to Hondacuraplanet
Wow. Just wow. Thanks for the update!

Tim Poliniak - ASE Certified Parts Specialist, 22 years with Acura/Honda
Hondacuraplanet is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Acura Forum : Acura Forums > Luxury Sedans > Legend > 2nd Gen Legend

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Acura Forum : Acura Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 

Ad Management plugin by RedTyger